Friday, September 19, 2008
Obama v. McCain
I couldn’t resist or I should say stay away from this post. It is the HOT topic of our day or should say, days. But I wanted to have all the Obama and McCain supporters write in and express why they support their candidate. But please refrain from lashing out on the other party, just state why you think your candidate should win. Cold hard facts. What does your guy stand for. I am sure I can google and find out, but then what would be the point of my blog or an open discussion.
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17 comments:
I'd like to ask you a question, have you been to Obama's website and read any of the material on there? Have you listened to commentary from people who do not subscribe to the same positions as you do? I have. I listen try to get as much information as I can from both sides so I can be absolutely sure that what I believe to be the right decisions are challenged and accurate. Have you considered the importance of issues other than abortion, gay marriage, and whatever other value that tends to lead to long drawn out discussions as to what is wrong with Obama?
I mean - we could sit here and have a discussion all day about why I support Obama, but the truth is if you are not seriously considering voting for him, then you are wasting Obama supporter's time.
I don't mean to be rude, but the discussion over in your friend's blog, Raw Views, just doesn't make any sense. There is no reasonable discussion going on about the differences in ALL THE POLICIES between the two candidates (not just the ones that offend you as a Christian).
So if you can be honest and say you are really open to learning more about Obama, then I think
this is a discussion worth having and I think it would be worth your time to do your own research into why we are here now, and what the two candidates are offering to help us get out of it.
But consider this, if our economy crashes next week. Will it be worth it to go through another depression so you could stop gay people from having a LEGAL marriage (notice I said legal marriage, not spiritual marriage). Would it be worth it because you managed to stop a woman from having a LEGAL abortion (notice again the importance of the word legal).
What you decide to vote on is up to you. That is your right. But personally, it pisses me off to have to live with 8 years of bad economic and international policy that affect my ability to take care of my children because people do not want gay people to get married. As long as I can feed my children I couldn't care less.
And yes, I know you said Obama and McCain. But I know you are not interested in Obama. You claim to be undecided, but I don't believe that based upon comments in the other blog. So far all I see is why you and your friends dislike Obama - without any consideration for his positives. And please - don't tell me you can't find any from his record, blah blah blah. That's BS. There is so much information out there all you have to do is read it - if you are really interested.
I really wish people were as open-minded as they lead themselves to believe. Then maybe we could stop spinning our wheels and move forward.
This is why I support Obama:
BLUEPRINT FOR CHANGE
Yeah, to what theone said.
The One, when I started this blog it was with the intention to learn more about the issues that we face in this world, because I am not that knowledgeable on most things, or even with politics. So this site is open to all to express their opinions without someone telling them they are wrong to think that way. Maybe a different flip from what you think Joel's site is, but that is his choice to do how he pleases on his site.
What I have noticed is that if you are not on one side of the fence then you can not hang out in the middle. Well my brother, I am in teh middle an until I am confident in my vote I won't be swayed either way.
In the beginning I was going to vote for all Obama, but there were things that just didn't seem right, so I myself, as I have expressed to those that have asked me, I have gone out on my own and watched both sides and researched as to which candidate did I feel held MY values and also were going to be the better person. I am a registered Democrat, but doesn't mean that I will only stick to my party if I feel that the candidate is not going to be a good fit.
Yes my belief's play an enormous role in the way I vote and no one can judge me for that, that is why we live in a free country to choose to vote as we please, but that isn't the only reason for making my choices. I never said that McCain held all of my values, actually I never said anything. I am not happy with the last eight years, I have my own opinions on what really happened on 9/11 and to voice that I would probably be called a radical, but all in all, I opened this blog up to get a better understanding of what both parties stand for or stand against so I could make a good decision that will not only effect me but also effect my family as well and my son's future.
I will not allow anyone to sway me either way, I look up for that. I am also looking forward to the debate so I can hear both sides talk about the things that matter most and I hope that after the debates I will know who I am voting for on Election Day.
If you choose not to be apart of this blog because you feel that I am not true to what I say or that since I am not supporting Obama, why should I waste your time, then do not comment, no disrespect. As I stated above, I am not leaning left or right at this time, I am in the middle, but I do have certain things that keep me away from wanting to vote for either party. So if you want to be apart of this that is fine, but if not then don't, no one is forcing you to comment, you did it on your own. This blog will continue on if you comment or not. I only want people who will keep an open mind, share their thoughts and argue the fact if that is what it calls for.
Joel is a good friend of mine, we share many of the same beliefs but that doesn't mean that I live by what he says, I am an intelligent man that has brains and can think for himself and also can make a rational decision if need be.
If you both feel offended by my comments or my blog, I am sure there are 100% supporting blogs that you can be apart of, if you don't like the reason for my blog or that you feeel that since I am not supporting Obama 100%, I am wasting your time, then it was nice knowing you and you can find a blog that suits you better. Remember you were sent to me, I didn't look for you, but I am sorry that we can not express our own views. I never told you not to vote for Obama, I only told you why I didn't want to vote for him at this time and if you like it or not or can even understand me or not, I live by my values and by the word of God more now in my life than I have ever done and if I am judged by that, oh well, it is my life.
If I had to vote today, I will ink my name on the ballot and vote for myself, because as I have stated, I am confused as which way to go, don't care for either candidate amd to explain to you why, I will be called a radical. Maybe I need a betetr understanding from those that are following 100%, but I see I won't get that because I have to be 100% either way to get that, oh well, I tried, next subject.
David, you said:
"Maybe I need a betetr understanding from those that are following 100%, but I see I won't get that because I have to be 100% either way to get that, oh well, I tried, next subject."
And I originally said:
"There is no reasonable discussion going on about the differences in ALL THE POLICIES between the two candidates"
Which is another way of me telling you that I am looking for an honest discussions about ALL policies of BOTH candidates. All I am saying is that if you know deep down for whatever reason you will not vote for Obama, if you can not bring yourself to look past your differences on social issues - then why bother?
I feel very frustrated about the political climate in this country. I respect the fact that your beliefs influence your choices. My beliefs do the same for me. However, I can not understand why economics, war and climate are not the top priorities on the majority of people's list. These three things will touch everyone's life - Christian or not.
I think it may serve your purpose better to get to the point. What exactly is it that is stopping you from voting Obama? Same question for McCain. I sincerely doubt that anything new will come out in the next 2 months that hasn't been said 100 times over the campaign trail. I do not agree with everything Obama says. But I do not have to.
To try and be brief...
I like Obama's positions on tax policy (anyone under $250K will receive some relief), education (college tuition credit for every student ever year), national healthcare system (or $2500 relief on premiums if you have ins), ability to buy into national healthcare system equivalent to what he currently has), international relations (diplomacy!), rebuilding US infrastructure and green technology. Right now these are my top priorities - the issues I am voting on. The issues I believe will have the most impact on all of America.
I do not like McCain's positions on these issues, they are too similar to what we are getting from Bush. I think McCain truly wants to help this country - but I am not all for letting the money trickle down from the rich to the poor, Nor do I think Obama's tax policy is "a redistribution of wealth". That's BS. You are allowing people with the least amount of money to keep more of what they earned. I WANT TO GET OUT OF IRAQ. I do not believe off-shore drilling will do anything - other than push the oil problem a couple years further down the line into someone else's administration. I do not want to privatize social security and I don't think a small $2000 (or whatever it is) tax credit for health insurance is going to help anyone who can not afford the insurance get it. I do think there should be more regulation and oversight over businesses to protect the consumer.
It is really that simple.
The One,I am an honest hardworking person that doesn't play mind games. I have issues with both parties, I am bothering because maybe I want to know more and your response in the last paragraphs tells me what I have been asking for, so I thank you for that part, but don't assume you know me or anything about me, all you think you see is someone that is just trying to look for a reason to not vote for Obama, I have many reasons, but maybe I may be looking for one to vote for him, maybe that may be my confussion, but I am not asking you to analyze me, I am asking all to share their feelings on the candidates and tehn I can learn more, if that is too much to ask, oh well.
Time is being wasted on this back and forth nonesense when the issues are what is important.
David - what are your reasons for not voting for Obama?
If they are values reasons - then what kind of discussion can we have about that? Do you get what I am trying to say? It is difficult to discuss these things electronically.. what I am getting at is if they are social issues (abortion, etc) then there really isn't much to discuss. You will never agree on these things. So that discussion cancels itself out. There is no compromise there.
Now policy issues. Either you like what he is presenting as the direction he wants for our country or you do not. I guess I am confused by "you are looking for a reason to vote for him" which brings me back to you already have reasons not to vote for him, and again, I think that would be more important to discuss than having supporters just post why they like their candidate.
So again - the question really is what are your positions on these issues? When we are less than 40 days away from the election, what do you want from your next president? That is the more important question. That's the one I asked myself. Turns out the choice was obvious for me.
Even today - I was all over Glenn Beck's website - trying to get another perspective, trying to understand what they want... but I just can not help that I disagree with much (though not all) of what the conservative movement has to say.
The weird thing is - left, middle and right really do want the same things - especially on the things we fight most about - they just disagree on how to get there.
It's really unfortunate.
ok, I am moving on to the next subject, this is a waste of time, thank you for your entries and hope other postings here bring interest to you, but I am sorry, I will not go back and forth with someone that basically is not understanding the whole concept of this blog.
Thanks for being apart of it, but I am moving on.
In addressing TheOne, I would like to inform him that I myself, TheJoe, have read--and does read--much material. I was born and raised as a Democrat, as a matter of fact, but the more I read, the more I understood that the Democratic Party did not represent me—and this was in the days well before Talk Radio and Rush and the internet; just me and my little brain. In fact, the reason that I am a Christian is not only because of the fullness and peace and joy and security that the Lord provides me in my life, but because all of the evidence leads to the best possible conclusion that what the Bible says is true. If TheOne truly wants to be honest, he should honestly research the claims of the Gospel. And I mean, go a little deeper than he ever has before. This is really, really important; much more important than this election. I might suggest "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, or "Evidence That Demands a Verdict," by Josh McDowell. Or perhaps, just spend some time in review of some of the free videos at LeeStrobel.com.
I write that because it seems to me that TheOne seems to assume that Christians are stupid—predominantly because we disagree with him. That’s just want I get from some of what he writes. Like, “why waste my time with these pompous ignoramuses?” Amazingly, this ignorant religion has been the most dominant belief system in the world since the beginning of time (including its Jewish ancestry). It is remarkably accurate and powerful and worth being scrutinized. May I also suggest that Christianity is so popular it’s true.
I agree with TheOne that it often seems as if Christians are only concerned with Abortion and Homosexuality. Christians do need to consider all of the issues. Another thing I agree with TheOne about is that we may be wasting time discussing some of these moral issues. On my own blog in particular, I don't post my beliefs because I believe anyone should agree with them -- especially non-believers -- but it would be nice if people like TheOne could at least try to understand my point of view -- even if he disagrees with me. I personally just want people to know where I am coming from. I consider all of the issues which I why I come to the conclusions that I do. And I have to make little effort to hear from the “left” because most of the media is left leaning, as are most of New York venues. The Bible’s view on the economy is “if you work, you eat.” It is also, “look after the poor and the widows.” It is also, “to give is better than to receive.” The Bible set up a system of giving to the church, called tithes, so as to support the work of the church. The concept is that of a “flat” tax. 10% across the board. Not 15% if you are rich, 3% if you are poor. If you have 1,000,000.00 give 100,000.00. If you have $10, give $1. Marxism’s model is, “give it all to the government,” because the government must control everything. This is why Marx and Lenin despised the church. Communism cannot flourish alongside Christianity because Christ is superior to Marx and communist leadership. Liberalism, that belief system adhered to by most Democrats, certainly Obama—the most liberal—is much closer to a Stalinist, Marxist, system. This is why Democrats love taxing people. TheOne cares so much about his family’s finances, yet he will not research this.
Now consider this: say you are alive during the time that Pharaoh (the political leader) issued his edict kill every boy born to a Hebrew woman. Let's also say that election time came up and they actually had an opportunity to vote. Now, how many other issues would matter to people? Would they say, "Hey, there are other issues here to discuss, you know?" The abortion issue is a HUGE issue, and quite frankly, it is pretty much enough. Now, TheOne, to me, as a Bible believing Christian, abortion is murder. I do not believe that God will continue to bless a nation that continues this practice. So you see, in my (our) worldview, it does affect everyone. Even you and your children. It affects our economy because I believe that God is sovereign and He could choose to bless us—or not. So try as we may, it is all in God's hands. You do not have to agree with this, of course, but this is what I believe...me and several other million people. This is not ignorance and is very well thought out.
A similar analysis could be had for the whole gay marriage issue. Homosexuality was the predominant sin in Sodom (hence the name) and Gomorrah. Many suffered...you know what? I already discussed this in my own blog which TheOne read. It seems that he and his friend Koplah only hear and see and read what they want to see.
TheOne says that my blog makes no sense and that "There is no reasonable discussion going on." Reasonable, I guess, meaning what HE likes or thinks is reasonable. There is a lot of good reasoning taking place there. He simply chooses to ignore what he cannot defend.
All that being said, if we simply forget the "Christian" issues, Obama is still not as qualified as John McCain to be President. Believe me, more than just Christians are going to vote for him. I am not even really sure where he stands on all the "Christian" issues. TheOne, is either really partisan, or really ignorant, to make "8 years of a bad economy" statement. First of all, despite 911, Enron, inheriting Bill Clinton's poor economy, etc., our economy has been doing very well until recently. This is why it was not addressed much until later in the Primaries when Democrats realized that (a) we were winning the war (b) the economy started to sour. Further, Congress, the main law making body, which is predominantly Democrat, also needs to take much responsibility. Nancy Pelosi said for 2006 elections that she (they) were going to fix things. They have done crap. This is one of the most ineffective Congresses in our history. Where is this "another 8 years" ignorance coming from? TheOne, this has nothing to do with abortion. So stop lying about the economy, or do your homework. And Obama is going to save our economy because he was a C.O. and has good ideas?!? How dare you criticize us for being simple?
TheOne is the only person is America that has evidently found tons of evidence to support Obama. I too have Google. Amazingly, he cannot find anything in John McCain’s 21 years as a Senator, when he actually voted on the issues and initiated serious legislation. Does this have anything to do with our radical, fundamentalist, Christian views?
My candidate is McCain.
A LEADER
From being a Captain in the Military and leading his party to work on Bipartisn bills and legislation I feel he has the experience to lead our country.
The WAR
I would like to fight terrorism in foreign lands not ours. He is for finishing the war in Iraq and having a beacon of democracy in a sea of terrorist lands. As a veteran of Desert Storm I know what its like to be there and we need to help those people from dictators and form an ally in the region.
Health Care
Although, many may argue that our health care system is broken it is one of the best in the world. I would not like to have the government provide health insurance for all. We should only provide it for those that need it. Provideing health insurance for all would cost the tax payers a fortune and in this economy, we can't afford it.
Abortion
I recently discovered that the woman at the center of the Roe Vs. Wade case would like to have that legislation overturned now. I don't know what is going through that ladies mind but I am definately for LIFE. McCain is pro Life. Partial Birth Abortion is something I heard quite often but didn't really know what it was until recently. When a women decides to have a late term abortion and during the removal of the fetus (BIRTH) and the baby is born alive. The Baby, (yes baby not fetus at this point) is then taken to a soiled linen closet to DIE. I apologize for that graphics on this but I feel strongly about this. unfortunately, Obama voted for this not once but twice. (the only time I will mention the opposition.
FOREIGN DEPENDANCY OF OIL
I am for independancy of energy. I am for anything we can do to stop that $700 Billion we send oversees for oil on a yearly basis. Lets do wind, solar, nuclear, and oh yes drill off of our own shores. We need to get to the point where not only are we independant but export over sees. We can do it and our country will be better for it.
Foreign Policy
We need to lead from a position of strength. We need a strong leader that has the experience to handle a military and not abuse that position of power. Having been in war himself, having his own children in the military McCain knows when the military is needed.
The VP Choice.
When I first heard of Palin I said who? but in a very brief period of time she has impressed me with what she has accomplished. As a member of the PTA she was encouraged to run for Mayor of her town. She ran and won. while there fought corruption and had conflict with the then governer who was also a republican. She fought the good old boys that were corrupt and stealing from the tax payers of Alaska. She then ran against the Governer of Alaska and won. she then went on to reduce taxes to the point that Alaskans do not pay state tax. It may not sound like a big thing to those who live in Florida but I live in NY and boy I would sure not like to pay state or city taxes. She accomplished this while raising 5 kids of which her eldest just left to Afgahnsitan on September 1, and her youngest born in April with down syndrome. When she became governer she fired the governors staff, sold his lear jet on e-bay and now drives herself to the office everyday in a volkswagon jetta. She is a real person that understands getting up in the morning and going to work while getting your kids out to school. I would like to have someone in the white house that knows what that is like.
These were my thoughts and i appreciate the time you took to read my words. I would like to pose several questions about the other candidate.
What substantial accomplishment has he had?
What is the extent of his foreign policy experience?
When has he held an exectutive level position that he had to make major decisions effecting others besides this campaign?
To me this is probably the biggest decision in an election that we will have to make in my life time. We have to look deep and hard at both of these candidates and make the right decisions that we will live with. please open your minds and hearts and consider them both openly.
Recently, I heard an interview with James Dobson, Focus on the Family founder. He was asked about his previous position during the primaries where he said He was not for McCain. He said that he was not for McCain but upon further review he was was left with no Alternative.
God Bless You and America
Why McCain is not my candidate.
A LEADER
I would swear that you pulled all this information from McCain’s website. Other than the passing reference of you serving in the military I would swear it was one of McCain’s surrogates talking. The fact is McCain should never have even become an officer in the Navy and if it wasn’t for the fact that his father was an Admiral he probably wouldn’t have. He finished damn near last in his class. He wasn’t promoted to the position of Captain because of a distinguished record. He spent the vast majority of his time in Vietnam in a POW camp and has no other accomplishment during his tour. My point isn’t to down play being a POW but to point out the fact that he did not do anything exceptional and as Captain what did he achieve? As far as being bipartisan, what major accomplishment has he achieved in a bipartisan way other then campaign finance reform in the last 27 years?
The WAR
Here we go again. Tito Iraq was not responsible for 9/11 and was in no way connected to it. They haven’t been able to prove otherwise in seven years so what are your talking about “I would like to fight terrorism in foreign lands not ours.” This statement makes no sense. In fact we have taken a land that was not known for terrorism and turned it into one. Just to settle a score. The only thing we have succeeded in doing in Iraq is creating more terrorism. There is nothing wrong with admitting when you are wrong, we did it in Vietnam and we should do it now. So based on you own philosophy which African country do you believe we should invade first in the name of spreading democracy, because many of those countries aren’t democratic either. While you are at it we may as well invade ourselves because Bush did not win in 2000 and it is questionable if he won in 2004.
Health Care
So we can afford a 10 billion dollar a month war but we con not come up with a comprehensive health care system that would help all Americans. Do you realize that the mortality rate in many of Americas poorest cities are as high is it is in some third world countries? You are right we do have one of the best health care systems in the world but only if you can afford it. You said “We should only provide it for those that need it”. Do you realize that this is nearly the entire middle class? No one needs insurance until you need is basically what you are saying. Very few in this country, and I am pretty sure you included can withstand an immediate family member sick and hospitalized for an extended amount of time without nearly or actually going bankrupt. Do you realize how many people in this country go bankrupt covering medical bills? Stop spewing talking points and learn the facts.
You obviously didn’t read my last comment concerning Obama and his voting record but I will try to explain it more clearly for you. In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn't include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion. Obama said himself that if the bill had been written differently he may have supported it.
FOREIGN DEPENDANCY OF OIL
No one disagrees with you about our dependency on oil with the exception of McCain maybe a year ago, but this isn’t a new situation. President Carter warned us about this in the late 70’s and yet John McCain who was in congress since 1982 never made this an issue. He has never even supported any legislation that would have even looked into an energy policy. Never! So all of a sudden now we are suppose to believe that he will be a crusader on this issue. Even the experts say that even if we struck oil in all the places that we wanted to drill around our coast we still would have to import over 60 percent of the oil that we would then need to function.
The VP Choice.
You have got to be kidding me on the Palin thing right? Please tell me that you are kidding. I bet you got all this information from Fox News didn’t you? Tito she was the mayor of a small town in Alaska which was probably the equivalent of a city block in your neighborhood. This means absolutely nothing. JoelRaw probably would have been able to won. The gubernatorial election consisted of a corrupt republican who she beat in the primaries and an unpopular governor who anyone could have beaten as long as they said they would clean up the corrupt Alaskan government, hardly a feat. In the two years she has been governor the demand for oil has increased which has forced Alaska to increase oil production whereby collecting more revenue for the state for it’s increased production. This surplus in revenue has allowed her to cut taxes and give a rebate to the citizens. Lets not forget that if Alaska had the population of lets say New York this would never have happened but since Alaska has only 650, 000 people (I think this would be Brownsville in Brooklyn) she was able to give a rebate. She had nothing to do with this very fortunate windfall she was just at the right place at the right time. Tell me this Tito, what corrupt politicians has her attorney general gone after since she has been Governor, who has he prosecuted in a corruption case because running for office alone doesn’t constitute taking on corruption. She did not sell the plane on e-bay, did not fire the gubernatorial staff just gave them different titles and the other governor also drove himself to work. The jet wasn’t for commuting and since it is 920 miles to get to the Washington State from Juneau (which is farther than the distance from New York to Florida) which is the closest state not to mention a trip through Canada I would think that the Jet was probably warranted. Also, she has a cook and a nanny that cooks for the kids and gets them ready for school. Come on Tito!
Barrack’s Accomplishments since becoming a State Senator
As a member of the Democratic minority in the 109th Congress, he helped create legislation to control conventional weapons and to promote greater public accountability in the use of federal funds. He also made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. During the 110th Congress, he helped create legislation regarding lobbying and electoral fraud, climate change, nuclear terrorism, and care for returned U.S. military personnel. After announcing his presidential campaign in February 2007, Obama emphasized withdrawing American troops from Iraq, energy independence, decreasing the influence of lobbyists, and promoting universal health care as top national priorities. This is just a few of the things that he has accomplished, lets not forget about his tenor as a State Senator, college professor and community organizer which included working with the homeless, unemployed and destitute as well as increasing voter registration and turnout.
How many treatise have McCain negotiated Tito and has McCain ever held an executive position? I don’t have to answer these questions because you already know but choose to deny the facts. Do you know that Abraham Lincoln who many consider to be our greatest president had even less experience than Obama. Lincoln had no government experience whatsoever; he wasn't a vice president, a governor, a general or a senator. In fact, he never even served in a presidential cabinet but yet he is considered one of our greatest presidents.
Dobson is a self promoting attention grabbing fraud that benefits like so many other religious leaders from the ignorance and naivety of others and whenever someone disagrees with him they are not “good” Christian or in some instances not Christian at all according to him. It is amazing how he could damn near paint McCain as the anti-Christ in 2000 but support him today. PATHETIC!
How can anyone in there right mine believe that McCain would be the best candidate for America right now is beyond comprehension especially considering the way he has chosen his running mate and run his campaign.
JOELRAW: "I write that because it seems to me that TheOne seems to assume that Christians are stupid—predominantly because we disagree with him. That’s just want I get from some of what he writes. Like, “why waste my time with these pompous ignoramuses?”
THEONE: Joel. At no point in time did I ever say that Christians were stupid or that Christianity was an ignorant religion. Please, do us all a favor, quote me directly rather than speaking fact to your perceptions. Anyone who knows me knows that I am in fact one of the most open minded individuals you sir will probably ever encounter. It is a shame you do not have the opportunity to know me personally - your projections of what you are used to getting on to me would be proven unfounded. There is much you do not know about me and much I may eventually reveal to you as being completely incorrect. I believe in everyone's rights to worship, believe, vote, choose, speak, and yes be in relationship that they want to - which is the only point I have been arguing since I posted on your blog and this one. I have not and will not ever say to anyone in this country that because my beliefs are against something you are at the core of your being - I will work to stop you from living the life that is most prosperous for you. Pay close attention to the meaning behind what I just said. I do not care if you agree with me. My only point is if you and I will never agree on abortion - then let's not discuss it. It is a waste of time. Let's discuss something that either one of us may be open to changing our positions on. What does that have to do with any disrespect you have received in the past from other people? What I have called for is for everyone to look at everything - from both sides of the story - if you can say with 100% honesty that you are open to opinions that are opposed to yours and willing to consider that they may be right and you may be wrong - then fine. Vote McCain. I respect your vote. But do not, for one minute, assume that I do not understand, I have not read enough, and I do now know enough about what you believe. Joel, I do think you have done more research than David and Tito on this subject. I think you are well read on your belief system. I think you are honest and truthful in your quest. I am not for one minute assuming that because you do not believe as I do, that you must not "know" something. Please stop it. You are projecting and personally - I am offended. I am not conservative person and I do not assume to impose any position on anyone - I simply argue another perspective.
JOELRAW: "Amazingly, this ignorant religion has been the most dominant belief system in the world since the beginning of time (including its Jewish ancestry)."
THEONE: I understand that even though Hinduism is considered the world's oldest religion - it would be ridiculous for a Christian to believe Christianity is not - so I will not argue that point any further. However, I hate to break it to you but Christianity is not the world's most dominant belief system, as per research done this year, Islam is the largest religion.. by approximately 2 million people. Sorry dude!
JOELRAW: "it would be nice if people like TheOne could at least try to understand my point of view -- even if he disagrees with me. I personally just want people to know where I am coming from."
THEONE: How many times do I have to say this.. I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM.. and... I RESPECT THE FACT THAT CHRISTIANITY MOTIVATES YOUR POSITIONS!!! ... but I still disagree. Is that ok? Can we move on from that now?
JOELRAW: "The Bible set up a system of giving to the church, called tithes, so as to support the work of the church. The concept is that of a “flat” tax. 10% across the board. Not 15% if you are rich, 3% if you are poor. If you have 1,000,000.00 give 100,000.00. If you have $10, give $1."
THEONE: On this we agree. However, if we were to have a flat tax, then we would need to close the hidden entitlement loopholes in the tax code which for the most part only benefit those making $200,000 and over. Which is essentially the only thing any of us have been arguing about - give it to everyone or to no one.
JOELRAW: The Bible’s view on the economy is “if you work, you eat.”
THEONE: As I said before, altering the tax code IS NOT GIVING MONEY TO PEOPLE. It is ALLOWING PEOPLE TO KEEP MORE OF THE MONEY THEY EARNED. You know - from working. Additionally, creating programs that are designed to help the poor and not the rich (I.e.. the healthcare system) is not trying to socialize anything - rather just trying to make it so that we do not have more sick and starving people in this country. This is not about "By the sweat of your brow, you will produce food to eat until you return to the ground, because you were taken from it. You are dust, and you will return to dust." as per Genesis. This is about "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18. Since you like to throw around scripture so much but yet neglect to incorporate these basic principles in your philosophy on taxes and social programs designed to to just that! And you say I am the one who does not understand Christian philosophy? Please brother. I live it. I VOTE ACCORDING TO IT.
JOELRAW: "Marxism’s model is, “give it all to the government,” because the government must control everything. This is why Marx and Lenin despised the church. Communism cannot flourish alongside Christianity because Christ is superior to Marx and communist leadership.
THEONE: I suppose any text is open to interpretation, however I would have to disagree with your assessment of Marx view on religion. It is my understanding he felt religion was merely a tool of control and really an outward expression of a bigger problem with society itself, materially and economically. He essentially felt it was used as a method of making those with the least feel more comfortable and hopeful about the condition of their lives, as they are being exploited by those with the most. In his mind, religion would not be able to exist without economic injustice.
JOELRAW: "Liberalism, that belief system adhered to by most Democrats, certainly Obama—the most liberal—is much closer to a Stalinist, Marxist, system. This is why Democrats love taxing people. TheOne cares so much about his family’s finances, yet he will not research this."
THEONE: ok - let's see. Just so we are all clear.. let's review the definitions of each as you suggest.
LIBERAL: broad-minded; Not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms. Of or constituting a political party ... associated with ideals of individual, especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives.
(BROAD-MINDED: Tolerant of varied views. Inclined to condone minor departures from conventional behavior)
LIBERALISM: A movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity. A theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard. A political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.
(LIBERTY: The quality or state of being free. The power to do as one pleases. Freedom from physical restraint. Freedom from arbitrary or despotic control. The positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges. The power of choice.)
CAPITALISM: An economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market .
CONSERVATISM: Disposition in politics to preserve what is established. A political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change. Such a philosophy calling for lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defense, and individual financial responsibility for personal needs (as retirement income or health-care coverage). The tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change
but wait - there's more:
STALINISM: The theory and practice of communism developed by Stalin from Marxism-Leninism and marked especially by rigid authoritarianism, widespread use of terror, and often emphasis on Russian nationalism.
MARXISM: A theory and practice of socialism including the labor theory of value, dialectical materialism, the class struggle, and dictatorship of the proletariat until the establishment of a classless society.
COMMUNISM: A theory advocating elimination of private property. A system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed. A doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. A totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production. A final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably.
SOCIALISM: Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. A system of society or group living in which there is no private property. A system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state. A stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.
Please provide proof of Obama being closer to the "Stalinist/Marxists" system. Because as I see it my friend - that is dishonest of you to even suggest.
JOELRAW: "TheOne, to me, as a Bible believing Christian, abortion is murder. I do not believe that God will continue to bless a nation that continues this practice. So you see, in my (our) worldview, it does affect everyone. ... This is not ignorance and is very well thought out."
THEONE: OK - that's what you think. That's fine. However, do you honestly think you can stop a nation from aborting away is blessings? Seriously. Think about that for a second. Do you really think YOU will stop women from having abortions? Do you really think overturning Roe V. Wade will stop women from having abortions? Forgive me for my SUGGESTION here - but it would seem to me that if you wanted to stop women from having abortions, you would apply more effort to stopping people who didn't want to have the children from getting pregnant in the first place. Like - oh I don't know - helping the economically stressed? Helping families raise their children more responsibly. Helping women have easier access to preventive healthcare solutions. Maybe... and this is really a stretch ... community organizing? Oh no - reaching out to those in most need certainly will not do anything to curb the number of abortions - will it? Oh, and please don't tell me about what happens in a woman's life when she is faced with decisions associated with sex, pregnancy and abortion. When was the last time you were pregnant?
JOELRAW: " It seems that he and his friend Koplah only hear and see and read what they want to see."
THEONE: Joel, there are a bunch of sins - are you really going to try and regulate against them all? Give me freakin' break already. Homosexuality is no more of a sin than... oh I don't know murder... like the way people are being killed in the war you are supporting...
JOELRAW: "He simply chooses to ignore what he cannot defend."
THEONE: Do you see how long this response is? I am trying to respond to everything... cut me some slack!!!
JOELRAW: "TheOne, is either really partisan, or really ignorant, to make "8 years of a bad economy" statement. First of all, despite 911, Enron, inheriting Bill Clinton's poor economy, etc., our economy has been doing very well until recently."
THEONE: Here we go... I do not even have the strength to argue this one - think whatever you want about Bush. This quote right here says enough for me...
"A tax code that has become hideously biased in favor of the rich; a national debt that will probably have grown 70 percent by the time this president leaves Washington; a swelling cascade of mortgage defaults; a record near-$850 billion trade deficit; oil prices that are higher than they have ever been; and a dollar so weak that for an American to buy a cup of coffee in London or Paris—or even the Yukon—becomes a venture in high finance.
The first major economic initiative pursued by the president was a massive tax cut for the rich, enacted in June of 2001. Those with incomes over a million got a tax cut of $18,000—more than 30 times larger than the cut received by the average American. The inequities were compounded by a second tax cut, in 2003, this one skewed even more heavily toward the rich. Together these tax cuts, when fully implemented and if made permanent, mean that in 2012 the average reduction for an American in the bottom 20 percent will be a scant $45, while those with incomes of more than $1 million will see their tax bills reduced by an average of $162,000."
Read the entire article for yourself (and this is Dec 2007... it wasn't even this bad back then!) - http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/12/bush200712?currentPage=1
JOELRAW: Congress, the main law making body, which is predominantly Democrat, also needs to take much responsibility. Nancy Pelosi said for 2006 elections that she (they) were going to fix things. They have done crap. This is one of the most ineffective Congresses in our history. Where is this "another 8 years" ignorance coming from?
THEONE: Yes, Dems have some responsibility because they didn't fix "crap". However, they have only been a majority for the last two years - what about the other 6? And if you even try to tell me that the other 6 were prosperous - I will loose all respect for your reasoning because that good fortune was what we now so affectionately refer to as "The sub-prime mortgage crisis!"
JOELRAW: So stop lying about the economy, or do your homework.
THEONE: I resent that accusation. Have you watched the news lately? You would be blaming the president if he were a Democrat (similar to how you blamed the 2 year old democratic senate in your previous statement for the 8 year Republican administration). So stop with the BS. Seriously - this is why it is so difficult to have a debate on your blog because of comments like this... I can't disagree with you without being an uninformed, liar who needs to do his homework? I don't speak to you in that manor, using that language - so spare me.
JOELRAW: TheOne is the only person is America that has evidently found tons of evidence to support Obama.
THEONE: Right... that's how he won the primary. Don't insult me or my candidate of choice - I don't insult McCain, or you in that way so you really need to check yourself.
JOELRAW: Amazingly, he cannot find anything in John McCain’s 21 years as a Senator, when he actually voted on the issues and initiated serious legislation. THEONE: Koplah already spoke to this. No need for me to even touch this one.
One more thing... Tito/David... I would like to recommend you watch this interview on Bill Moyers Journal (PBS). NO need to worry - the guy being interviewed is conservative. No "left-wing propaganda" here.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html
"Bill Moyers sits down with history and international relations expert and former US Army Colonel Andrew J. Bacevich who identifies three major problems facing our democracy: the crises of economy, government and militarism, and calls for a redefinition of the American way of life."
And read his book, The Limits Of Power.
It may shed some light on your feelings about, the war and our current state of the economy.
Part two of that interview:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch2.html
I STRONGLY recommend you watch these two interviews.
I just want to take a minute to say thank you for all and finally getting the concept as to why I created this blog. Even though we are separated by our beliefs I still felt that we as adults can get together on a blog and express our opinions, which doesn't mean that we can't argue our points but that at least we are respectful enough to know that each and everyone has a right to their opinion and who they choose to vote for, but allowing each one of us the opportunity to at least argue the point is very educational.
I have been extremely busy with school, work and my family, but I have logged in each day to at least read your comments. I will comment real soon. It has been extremely interesting to say the least.
The One, thank you for that link, I probably won't get to it until this weekened, but as I have stated before, whatever my stance is doesn't stop me from being educated on both sides. One day I will have to explain this all to my son and Grandchildren and would like to know that I understood both sides.
And The One, you are right with that Joel has done more research than I have in most areas, but doesn't mean that I am ignorant or slow to understand, so as you see, this is why I have created this blog as I have stated many times, so that people who have done their research in these matters can educate me and others, and that allows me to make the decision that best suits me. Like you said, a different perspective.
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